wlotus | Biblical Ponderings

To the woman [God] said, “...Your desire shall be for your husband, And he shall rule over you.”
~Genesis 3:16b, NKJV

In the later years of my identification as an evangelical Christian, I understood this account of God's word to Eve after Adam and she sinned to be a warning: God was warning Eve that because they were no longer sinless, men would oppress women, rather than women and men living and ruling the earth (not each other) as complete equals as Eve and Adam had done up to that point (Genesis 1:27-30). But it was only this afternoon that I realized God made no mention to Adam of a backlash against men because of the way they had oppressed women. It couldn't be because God (as the writer of this account knew God) did not know; according to the Bible, God knows everything. So was that part of God's word left out by the writers (or later editors), who were products of their misogynistic culture? Or, perhaps, did God not say anything to Adam about the inevitable backlash, because he knew Adam's sinful state would not allow him to hear and understand the danger of giving in to that sinful desire to rule over women?

Discuss.

Flat | Top-Level Comments Only

For info on the Gnostic gospels I highly recommend Elaine Pagel's classic book on the- simply titled The Gnostic Gopels. Some of the Gnostic gospels refer to an original Mother goddess, and that Yaweh was jealous of her.

I flirted with a sort of feminist Gnostic Chritianity from age 13-15, then was sort of "new-agey" minus the guru worshipping from 15-17, Then at 17 I finally discovered Paganism and found my spiritual home. (My mother was a liberal Southern Baptist and my dad was Agnostic, so individualism and personal questing for spirituality was a natural thing in my household.) At 19 I found my path within Paganism, as a skeptical solitary eclectic Wicca. That's been my path for 23 years now.

Fascinating! I have things to look up, the next time I go to the library!

I am surprised your mother could be Southern Baptist and liberal. How did she reconcile her liberal leanings with her Southern Baptist leanings?

It, er, helps if you have a religion-disdaining ultra-liberal friend from Massachusetts who is prepared to actually bite you any time you say something decidedly un-liberal. But then, eventually you stop being a Southern Baptist and people start blaming her for it. =P

Nim, I was talking about my mom. She, like me, a liberal feminist, strong supporter of Civil Rights, etc... neither she nor I needed anyone from elsewhere to "educate" us. ;) We do have books down here too. ;)

You might want to look at the links I posted too- Southern Baptists aren't the stereotypes the media makes them into, the majority strongly reject the far right wing that have taken over the SBC. Moderate and Liberal Southern Baptists are so different from right wing SB that even to me- who went to a moderate SB church with my mom until I was 12, I don't understand how in the blazes they are even under the same religious name. Most moderate and liberal SB hate what the right wingers have done to besmirch their faith. I can recall when I was a child, they were mockingly called "snake handlers and holy rollers" by even conservative leaning moderate SB.

Liberalism has just as strong roots in the south as the north, my four times great grandfather was an abolitionist politician in a small town in Southern Kentucky (in the same town that the first Confederate capital of Kentucky was formed, no less!) Kentucky was violently split during the Civil War- it literally was brother against brother in my home state. Kentucky stayed with the union but there was a Confederate capitol as well (same thing happened in Missouri)

Yet after the Civil War my ancestor became a highly respected man. His daughter, my three times great grandmother, was also a fierce abolitionist, and did something few women, north or south did back then, she passionately testified in court for the right of a local African American solider who fought for the Union side, to recieve a government pension.

My maternal great grandmother and paternal grandmother were strong supporters of a woman's right to control her own body, and practiced family planning- my great grandmother had only one child, and my paternal grandmother spaced her three children 6 years apart.

In the house I grew up in Martin Luther King was a hero to all of us. I have been a dyed in the wool bleeding heart liberal feminist since my first memories. I was an ardent feminist already when I experienced my first direct experience of sexism in 1973, when I was 7.

I'm so liberal that I embrace elements of idealistic socialism (no I don't believe rich people's property should be taken away from them, but I think they should pay taxes like they did during the Rosevelt-Carter adminstrations- 70-94%. I'm strongly anti big business, and strongly pro union. The Green Party expresses many of the values I've had all my life.) I want the Green Party to become a viable third party.

I know you were talking about your mom. The question just reminded me of my own experience growing up as such. Nearly all of my relatives are Southern Baptists, and that's the church I was raised in. Prior to having that biting-inclined friend from Massachusetts who was willing to call bullshit at the drop of a hat, I was, erm...*cringe*

So I take it that you grew up the right wing type Southern Baptist church? Because the moderate Southern Baptist church is all about finding your own spiritual path, which is why they absolutely will not baptize anyone under 12. They don't believe children under 12 are mentally mature enough. It has to be your own free choice. We were taught to listen for that still voice within to know when we'd discovered the right path for us. I think that's good advice. It's what led me to wicca. I explored various spiritual paths and finally when I came across paganism at 17, that little inner voice finally said "yes, this is your home." My mother was a bit uncomfortable at first but made no objections, before long though she realized it was "a positive religion" and was totally cool with it. My liberal Methodist paternal grandmother was completely accepting too. My agnostic dad was kind of roll his eyes, not bothering to take it seriously, he thought it was the same as the "flakey New Age stuff". My moderately conservative Southern Baptist maternal grandmother took several years to accept it, but oddly enough she's always been a believer in psychic abilities.(Edgar Cayce, Sybil Leek, etc...) It was when she started reading the Sylvia Browne books that she finally accepted it. Apparently Sylvia Browne (even though I think the woman is a con artist) explained Wicca in a way that my grandmother could accept. It also helped at the time the SBC finally went to far right wing for her to tolerate- the stupidity about women being subordinate to men and not being allowed to be missionaries, deacons, or pastors. That made her really angry. She stopped going to her church, and switched to another SBC that had a woman pastor.

Yeah, I did. My family isn't ultra-conservative, but they are somewhere to the right of of moderate, enough so that their sympathies lie with all but the most batshit of the theocons.

It wasn't a contradiction. Bill Clinton, Al Gore, and Jimmy Carter are all Moderate-Liberal Southern Baptists. Most people who didn't grow up around the Southern Baptist church are completely ignorant about it, and have all kinds of stereotypes. The reality is there are two strains of Southern Baptists. The Moderates (which have members that go from moderate to liberal) and the Conservatives. Most people unfamilar with the Southern Baptist faith think they are all like the Conservatives. The majority of Southern Baptists are actually moderate to liberal, but the moderate to liberal Southern Baptists are stanch supporters of the seperation of church and state, and have moderately liberal stances on most social issues. The moderates had control of the Southern Baptist Convention from the 1950's-late 1970's. The Conservatives used sneaky tactics to take over the SBC. But even with that take over, every Southern Baptist Church is independent, each church's leadership- pastor and deacons (and the deacons actually have more power than the pastor in moderate Southern Baptist Churches) decide whether they will accept or reject the SBC current statement of belief. Even some Moderately Conservative Southern Baptist churches have utterly rejected the far right SBC statements- most noteably the entire Texan delegation when that idiot made those misogynist statements about women in 2000. Jimmy Carter and his wife Rosalyn, who lead religious classes in their local church also strongly rejected the SBC. Jimmy Carter made a statement about it, and joined the Cooperative Baptist Fellowship- which many moderate and progressive Southern Baptists have joined. (and Jimmy Carter is on the conservative side of moderate Southern Baptists, Rosalyn is more a liberal leaning moderate.) I'm probably running out of space to write a response, so I'll give you some links
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Duke_Kimbrough_McCall
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cooperative_Baptist_Fellowship
http://www.yuricareport.com/Dominionism/HowDominionistsTookOverSBCChronology.html
http://www.txbc.org/2001Journals/JanFeb2001/JournalJan01.htm
http://www.txbc.org/2001Journals/JanFeb2001/Jan01Jimmycarteroctober2000.htm

Biblical Ponderings

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