Still Hanging On

[wlotus]

I had a conversation yesterday that reminded me I no longer believe the foundational tenets of Christianity. I don't believe there is a cognizant, independent being called "God"; to me, god is nothing more than another word for the life force that is found in all living things. I don't believe Jesus was any more or less divine than you or me; he was a person of incredibly strong convictions who treated people from all sexes and walks of life with radical equality in a time and culture where that was almost unheard of. I believe Bible accounts of things like the creation and the parting of the Red Sea are, most likely, myths like the ones the Greeks and Romans told about their gods to explain what they did not understand. (I still don't have a firm opinion on the stories about Jesus' death and resurrection.)

Yet I do not have any desire to withdraw my membership from The Riverside Church, a decidedly Christian church, in spite of not having attended a worship service since mid-summer, and in spite of not being involved in any ministries or classes there. I have no desire to find and join a Unitarian Universalist Church (UUC) congregation; because they are not decidedly Christian, it wouldn't feel like being a member of a "real" church to me. And I insist on defining myself as "Christian", though I am quite clear that my deep respect for how Jesus lived his life and my agreement with the things he taught is what makes a Christian, not belief in his divinity or the sometimes questionable teachings of his early followers.

I feel as though I am grasping at straws, and I do not understand why I am grasping.

Comments

[tapati.livejournal.com]

And yet UU felt TOO much like the church of my childhood for me, though progressive and accepting of any beliefs. The services were very much in the pattern of any Christian Church I've ever visited.

[sophiaserpentia.livejournal.com]

For a couple of years I explored liberal Christianity, until I realized that my understanding of the divine presence is too much unlike any version of God recognized by any religion for the word "God" to really apply. For one thing, I do not believe the divine presence is person-like, and the concept of a "personal God" is an inherent tenet of Christianity, even in its liberal forms.

The other thing that made me turn away finally from Christianity was the concept that humanity is fundamentally broken and that we require the assistance of God to be fixed. This idea exists even in Bishop Spong's writings, and he's the most liberal Christian theologian I know.

Remove these two things from even liberal Christian teaching and what you're left with is so unlike any form of Christian belief being practiced that it doesn't seem meaningful to try to call it "Christian."

[audrabaudra.livejournal.com]

""I must Create a System, or be enslav'd by another Man's." --William Blake

[solitary-summer.livejournal.com]

I feel as though I am grasping at straws, and I do not understand why I am grasping.

I don't come from a religious family/background and have defined myself as an atheist/agnostic for almost twenty years, but when I finally formally quit the catholic church this summer I still felt a pang of guilt/emptiness/loss that I cannot rationally explain at all. I'd made the decision earlier this year over the Lefebvrist scandal and the incident where they excommunicated those who helped getting an eleven year old Brasilian girl who'd been raped by her stepfather an abortion, but then was too busy/lazy for a while, and I caught myself wishing I'd done it while the moral outrage lasted. (Un)fortunately the Austrian bishops said a couple of things in relation to gay marriage recently that made me seethe with anger all over again, and actually grateful that I'd quit...

[sweet3mich.livejournal.com]

I love reading these kinds of posts from you because they almost exactly reproduce what I am thinking in my head.

Lately I have found myself wanting to become a member of a church, not because I believe in Jesus' divinity, or the idea of God being an all powerful, singular creator who we should all give ourselves over to. But I know there *is* something greater than myself out there, and I know that I like the idea of being surrounded by others who feel the same way. And I do believe in some of the basic teachings of Jesus, who I believe to be a progressive thinker of his time and someone who changed the course of history in a very large way. And for that I admire him. But is he any more divine that you or me? No.

I don't know. I am yearning for something, for real. Something I can sink myself in to and say "Ahhh..this is where I belong." Something that I will find a continuous source of happiness and joy that I can then pass on to others. *shrug* I just don't know what it is or where it is and that is increasingly frustrating to me.

[jadegirl.livejournal.com]

though I am quite clear that my deep respect for how Jesus lived his life and my agreement with the things he taught is what makes a Christian

This seems very solid, very *real* to me. I don't know how else to explain it, but it just seems so clear.

[mage-girl.livejournal.com]

I think you know where I stand on this.

While I have a deep respect for the tenets that Jesus taught and how he lived his life, I cannot, in good conscience, stand as a Catholic anymore.

That hurts. I had taken refuge in the Church and in God as a "Loving God" while a child.

What hurts even more, however, is how humans have turned the Loving God into "I Love you but only if" God. And I can't condone that.

So I find myself turning more and more to nature and to shamanism and to that spark within myself that defies any explanation.

I find myself more at peace with meditation and deep thought and sending out my energy to the Universe at large, to become one with the stars and the grass and the trees.

I'm not quite sure what I'm going to do about Christmas. I'm going to have to think on that one.

But regardless, I am happy for the teachings I DID learn as those have helped form the bedrock of my moral and spiritual code. And that, perhaps, is what it was meant to do. Everything else is what I have discovered that speaks to the heart of me.


*hugs*


K.

[wlotus.livejournal.com]

I didn't realize you have had to forgo standing as a Catholic. Last I knew, you still found refuge and comfort in certain aspects of Catholicism.

Christmas doesn't have to be about religion; it doesn't have any religious meaning for me, anymore, but the holiday remains meaningful. In fact, now it feels more meaningful to me, now that I don't have to try to incorporate religious observances that held little personal meaning to me on top of a holiday that, in my heart, has always been about family and blessing others.

[mage-girl.livejournal.com]

I DO still find comfort in the teachings that speak to me...

But the Catholic church as a whole has alienated the hell out of me.

sigh

At any rate, I'll figure out what to do about Christmas. The Midnight mass is simply beautiful and breathtaking here at the Church. I could go and simply enjoy it for the celebration it is. :)


K.

[smileyali.livejournal.com]

You remind me a little about my mum. She's a Quaker. She believes that Jesus was a special and good man and as that did exist. But not as a son of god. I feel comfortable following her feelings on that.

On the subject of god we differ. Mum believes in some kind of divine authority. I feel god and conscience are inseparable, and any understanding I have of a good spirit is the one that comes from inside. Seeing that of good rather than that of god in everyone is how my mind deals with it. If that's any help just as a discussion.

[wlotus.livejournal.com]

In fact, I have grown to share your view of god/conscience. I grew up thinking like your mom and worked under that assumption through my twenties and well into my thirties. But in the past five years I've let that belief go, because it simply doesn't make sense to me.

[arkadelos.livejournal.com]

You are not alone in how you feel about God and the Universe. More often, I cannot read/listen to what other people say about God because they refer to a singular, omnipotent entity. I think of God as simply the essense of the Universe. Even so, I find some universal truths in the bible. For some people, a single, loving entity is a sort of comfort and helps them to direct their spiritual energies. However, other people find it too limiting and constraining.

There is nothing wrong with keeping your membership to the church since you have no wish to part with it.

[wlotus.livejournal.com]

There is nothing wrong with keeping your membership to the church since you have no wish to part with it.

You know what? You are absolutely right. Thank you for reminding me.

[rockbirthedme.livejournal.com]

Just a thought -- is it possible that you're looking for community? I ask because I realized that was what I was looking for in a church. For me, that turned out to be the wrong place to look, but I think that was in part because of who I am and what the churches I attended were like. I learned to look elsewhere, and more importantly, how to look elsewhere, and I've been successful in doing that.

I agree with the commenter above that you don't have to justify yourself to anyone else about why you attend church. If you have reasons that seem good and proper to you, and you aren't going there to be damaging or destructive, then no one can decide whether you should go except for you.

[wlotus.livejournal.com]

Yes! But I am specifically looking for community that touches me on a spiritual level, and I haven't yet figured out what to do about that. I automatically think, "Church," when I think of spiritual community. Maybe I need to think something different.

[joystreet.livejournal.com]

My Sociology of Religion professor from a few years back loved church and was not only a regular member but the Choir Director where he attended, even though he identified as an Agnostic. This was an odd concept to me when I heard it, but it makes sense: He didn't believe in God or any of the stories recited during sermons, but Church, to him, was a valuable and distinct part of our (and most every) culture. He loved the community, the sense of togetherness, and the unity amongst and between this group of individuals who under most other circumstances wouldn't feel such a strong bond. He seemed quite peaceful in his explanation that despite the obviously oppressive and antiscientific concepts churned out from time to time, there was something else of value there that made it worth being a part of to him. He certainly gets something fulfilling out of the way he viewed the Church's use to him. I dunno, maybe that's where your space is, too. :)

[wlotus.livejournal.com]

It could be that in time, I will have a similar relationship to church. There are some things I am working through with regards to my particular church before I decide whether to go back or find another, but it is good to know there are people who get something valuable out of participating in spiritual community, even if they don't believe all of the tenets of that faith.

[wlotus.livejournal.com]

Also, I still have a ways to go before I can genuinely love church. Since I was dragged to church since before I was born, mostly against my will, I still feel resentment about all of the years of my life I spent in church instead of living and experiencing life. I want to love church, and I usually feel good about being there once I go, but making myself leave home to get there is a battle I usually don't win.

[flyingshaman.livejournal.com]

You know, these posts (and the way people comment to them) really remind me partly of why I follow you. You have this tremendous clarity of expression, of saying exactly what you mean and meaning what you say. Clarity is the word for it. And upon reading your words, it makes me realize that I don't really -have- an opinion on the Bible, of my own, because it's either simply been read to me or been taught about to me, but I haven't compared it with my own stuff because I've never really thought of it before.

But yes, this is all really good. I've been coming to a place in therapy where really discerning what is clear to me and all of that is essential. I'm not sure if I'll go back to church -- it just doesn't resonate with me.

I love reading what you write. I think you're tremendously gifted with words.

[wlotus.livejournal.com]

Your words warm my heart. Thank you.

[ephany.livejournal.com]

I'd invite you Church of Waffles this Sunday, where we worship at the iron, if you were in the neighborhood. :)

[wlotus.livejournal.com]

If I were able, I would come with praise and thanksgiving and a liberal offering. Amen. :-)